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 The problem of invariability inherent to all EM musics

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Wallace the Lad
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:31 pm    The problem of invariability inherent to all EM musics Reply with quoteBack to top

Sameness from lp to lp, even within a single lp.

This becomes ever so evident - although they are reluctant to even admit it to themselves - to collectors which amass a load of EM.

It seems a sheer madness that one is collecting ALL THIS ALIKENESS.






This topic was brought up momentarily somewhere else on this site, but I cannot locate it just now.


Here is something I quote from my forum:

Wallace:
"Wallace loikes EM same as the next cocksucker, but must be said that any joeblow can smack together EM. Takes no skill whatsoever.

Have you noticed how the formula is almost always the same:
a busy, very fast sequencer base over which you have VERY SIMPLE (usually moderately-paced, newagey) keyboard runs/chords.

Why are those "solos" almost all times so sleepy? Why are they never advanced and quick?

Must be that then it would be at odds with the face sequencer reiterations & repetitions.

Can you think of a single peice of EM, outside of Larry Fast and a handful others, that has complex /swift synth work alla - say Wakie on "Where is this dream of your youth"?(Only , of course, that is organ - but you knos wot I means.)"


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Karney:

"EM can easily & usually is the Equipment dictating how it is made.. take for instance Mort Garson, nearly all his albums have that same sound which is the way he is letting the instruments make his sounds.. same with Tangering Dream take LP's like 'Rubycon'/'Phaedra'. the sound is simular between the two because of the Step Sequencer they are using The technology is restricting them.. Later on when Digital Sequencers came out there was more creative ways to use them hence the simple step Sequence was no more this is why TD changed directing in styles around then.

With Drum Machine you can always here what period the track was made. Cos you can clearly hear the different sounding patterns being used from say a Roland 'CR78', 'TR808' & later 'TR909' they sound totally different. Now we are at a point where musicians find the latest tech cack & want to go back using the old equipment again, what you end up with is a no mans land of sound collages where you cannot pin a distinct era to end result. But at least musicans have access to more creativity using gear from a range of decade instead of being stuck to what is available in one era as in back then, which as mentioned at the start, tied the musicians creativity to the technology available back then.."





Even from the start, EM had severe limitations on what you can do.
"Electronic Mediation" lp actually had NO electronics (this was a lp title that was more-or-less forced on Froese by the man with the bucks - you know who). Non-musician Baumann was brought on board because he would get INSIDE the Farfisa organ and coax unworldly sounds from there that were rather novel to vinyl.

When the electronics finally came, they were limited also - oscillators were notorious for drifting, things like mellotrons were unconstant, finicky, not malleable towards movement outside of studio.

And THERE WAS ONLY SO MUCH YOU COULD DO WITH THEM.

The pioneers like , say Radio Workshop or Bruce Haack,created novel sounds never heard before. Tangerine Dream created (non-electronic) sounds/effects FROM SCRATCH. This may seem to you of little consequence, but your fooling yourself. It is NOT that easy.

You think little of it in today's world where you can get any effect/sound at the push of a sampling button, but back then it WAS an achievement to get something acoustically errie (cosmic-sounding) from materials at hand.

Now even the quirky vintage gear has been made unfallible in virtual form (for instance have you checked-out the fantastic job they made on the virtual EMS VCS3?)

One arpeggiator sounds much like another - its just patterns played at set tempo. And over this is always the (almost formulatic ) noodling.
Certain synths were ,nigh created from the outset towards having the dubious fate of sounding "dated". (I'm thinking just now of early polysynths and horrid things like early UK synthpop.)

When it IS something seriously-structured then - it would seem - most EM heads are not that interested in it: for example , how many on this forum are interested and actually POST ABOUT (besides Tomita-posts) electronic takes of classical music?


When today's EM musicians are all using the same samplers, the same patches instead of concentrating on a single vintage instrument and getting the most out of its permutations. (Of course, this is ever-true for organ as well - look at all the Hammond's drawbar possibilities - yet musicians are pulling up the self-same Deep Purple overdrive-sound/Pink Floyd-More-period sound on their Rolands.)



Yes, invariably EM all sounds alike.
At what point is too much simply.....well, too much?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:47 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

A little bit of talent would help enormously.

This, and a little bit of imagination and inventiveness (if that is a word).

Stephen

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:04 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Wallace the Lad » wrote:
Sameness from lp to lp, even within a single lp.

This becomes ever so evident - although they are reluctant to even admit it to themselves - to collectors which amass a load of EM.

It seems a sheer madness that one is collecting ALL THIS ALIKENESS.


Oh, really...?

Well, most of my albums actually are quite different from each other - even one of them often is a mixed bag (...I was told). Razz

Maybe that's why no one is collecting them...? Rolling Eyes


« dronescape » wrote:
A little bit of talent would help enormously.

This, and a little bit of imagination and inventiveness (if that is a word).

Stephen


Ah, that! I knew something was missing... Wink


Indeed, what's EM anyway; I'll switch to Neo Prog soon - Metal - even commercial radio stuff or Schlager:

Variety where ever You turn to... Laughing

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Wallace the Lad
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:03 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

I take it your kidding: metal and neoprog are just about the epitome of sameness. (No - maybe Armenian sheep-shearing music put through a minimalist framework is.)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:24 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Wallace the Lad » wrote:
I take it your kidding: metal and neoprog are just about the epitome of sameness. (No - maybe Armenian sheep-shearing music put through a minimalist framework is.)


In that case You probably indeed got the irony... Wink

On a more serious note:

One factor why EM "inevitably" sounds alike is, I guess, not a matter of music as such, but a matter of definition:

If any music doesn't exactly sound like TD in 1981, but - starting from there - explores new terretory, the majority of listeners start screaming:

"This is not EM - this is (prog rock / electro pop / techno / drum and bass / influenca / pitbull shit / anything but not "our" EM...) "

If EM is defined that way, how should possibly anything that's EM by that definiton sound any different than TD in 1981...?!?!

Of course, I generalised, but I guess You know what I mean.

There are thousands of albums with electronic music (some of them even are even good) that have been recorded since 1981 which all are different from that blueprint (and, by the way, there have been many, many before 1981, too).

Why not just go looking for them...? Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:26 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Wallace the Lad » wrote:
Yes, invariably EM all sounds alike.

except for Aphex Twin, i have yet to hear of anyone else sounding like Richard D James.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:48 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

I can't judge on that because I have not heard everything yet.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:38 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Wallace, post some links to your music so we can give a listen.

Last edited by ech3 on Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Wallace the Lad
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:35 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

You want me to surf the net for you finding linkiepoos?

Which ones you interested in?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:28 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

A Google search for your name turns up links to Wallace & Gromit. Which are great, but not what I had in mind.

I'd be interested in any of your music that has none of this "sameness" you so detest.

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Wallace the Lad
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:03 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

My music is progressive rock.

I am a PROG MASTERMAN. I am celebrated all over the weeb as being such.

Prog is the opposite of EM in that it can be an amalgam of many different genre influences - usually mainly blues, classical, folk and jazz.


I do not think I said I "detest" sameness.
Sameness in EM Wallace can swallow (in none-to-large doses). Actually it provides a decent temporary - sleepy - change from the constant complexities and musicianship of prog.


Here is a good two lp prog concept set (which likely only one or two here on this forum heard of) that exhibits this diversity: :"Victor" by Rigoni & Schoenhertz.


One I really like, where they take the SAME theme yet run it through different permutations, is Latte e Mielle (Milk & Honey) "Papillon".


Some prog - like the well-known early Genesis - of course is NOT a melting pot of styles.


A well-known prog that is variform , is "dark Side Of The Moon" . You have the EM track, you have the gospelly vocalization on "Great Gig in the Sky" you have straight rock , pop and an easy-listening type style as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:13 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

In fact I don't want to plead for all those who might think that only a step sequencer ostinato (preferably played on some cool-looking vintage gear) + some simple legato notes would already make good "Electronic Music"; however, even a prog head might keep in mind that plain virtuosity just does not necessarily means musicality by itself.

As in fine arts a simple brush stroke can mean to be much more "art" to somebody than any elaborated naturalistic painting.

It just don't feels right to me to judge music just by a certain quantity, and even if it was the quantity of crafty musical skills.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:56 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

A simple brush stroke means nothing to me other than ineptitude. (Also pulling the wool over others' eyes. )

Sure , Wallace has (stupid) minimalist newage-like records in the collectro. Dont play them much, but do play them when Im in need of sleepytime bobos or want to harmlessly drift off. But to listen to stuff like Hearts (Arks???)From Space all the time! You gotta be kidding.

There was a Russian artist called Shishkin who painted only trees. He limited himself to that but he gave it such remarkable detail that it was almost like photograph - only likely back then there were no photos yet. You can almost feel the bark. HIM I admire.


Speaking of that ropey minimalist/newage: Im thinking of playing one of the better ones NOW : David Lenz "On The Leopard Altar".

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:13 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Music not created from the heart is nothing to remark. It is not about taste or about knowledge, it is about talent as Stephen said.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:01 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Wallace the Lad » wrote:
My music is progressive rock.

I am a PROG MASTERMAN. I am celebrated all over the weeb as being such.



Oh my God, here we have got a fool to obey to. Bless you my friend.

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