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 What triggers a sale?

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analoguekid
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:03 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

My hats off to you Vaughan, you are one that still spends lots of your hard earned on CD's but in saying that it is probably one of your hobbys Wink and fairplay to you, no I dont see your post as an attack.

In answer to one of your points, I very rarely buy CD's when I do its either from mainstream pro bands and usually their latest release etc. or from my Peers within this em scene to support that particular artist.

I am not going to comment on anything else as thats your opinion, what I will say is that to me, owning 4000 odd CD's is collecting, however long it has taken to get to that amount. Let me ask you the same question, what makes you decide what CD to buy, do you buy any of Berts or did you buy mine (if not why not, only joking dont answer that one Very Happy)

anyway thanks for your thoughs and opinions on my analogy of this situation;- 0

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BruecknerAmbient
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:42 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Ahm - much could be remarked to any point of these many posts... Wink

I'll pick to topics briefly:

- the "hobby muso vs. the professional musician":

I think maybe we need a minimum of (more) differentiation here - as these are of course the opposite poles of a rather wide spectrum. Somewhere in the middle I would place the "amateur with serious artistic aspirations".

You know, "hobby muso" sounds to me like a person who is toying around, not realy determined to invest a lot of time and passion in what he does. He (or she) tries a few things, maybe even has the talent to achieve a few things (in terms of "art"), however it's after all not that important. A nice thing to have and spend some time with...

Whereas the "amateur with serious artistic aspirations" would happily dedicate his (or her) entire life to music, if only there was a chance to (...but lack of good fortune prevents it, or lack of whatever).

I guess this might be the category of musicians for who the initial question is most pressing.

For professionals we then could differentiate in a similar way:

There a some for who music is a mere job, something they are good at, but they don't have big artistic aspirations - for them, maybe, it's easiest, because the can take the option to do music that is trendy and in demand without any inner trouble...

Of course, they are also professionals with artistic leanings - the "real" artists maybe. We all know that they also get into trouble easily when it comes to generating record sales - if they follow a new trend, they are likely to get bashed, and if they do the same old thing over and over again as well...

Of course, what I wrote is still more generalising than true - but if we keep in mind that these are only specific points of a wide spectrum in which all shades and mixtures occur, it might work...


Ehrm. That wasn't briefly, excuse me... Wink

- The collectors vs. download consumers:

I can more or less agree to Vaughn here in that my own collecting/purchasing behavior is similar to his, with one difference: I also don't hesitate to purchase a download, why not?

I used to be a record collecter when I was twenty years younger, later I didnÄt take it so seriously anymore, but still like to have the complete catalogue of a chosen few musicians/bands (because I like them, I am interested in what they do, and want to have it available whenever I like...). This includes rather well-known as well as obskure bands. Thinking of it, I have really a lot of music of hardly known musicians, or at least of musicians I didn't know at all at the time I started to buy their albums (...for instance I never had heard about that weired named band "Jethro Tull" when I bought "Stormwatch" as a 14 years old - attracted by it's cover, by the way).

Well, anyway. However, I know quite a few people who have a similar behavior than me in that respect. We, of course, might still be an insignificant minority, dunno...

Wink

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Vaughan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:13 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

I've actually been buying lots of electronic titles lately, especially David Tudor, Luc Ferarri, Todd Dockstader, Pauline Oliveros, Don Preston etc. Lots of things. I've also been digging into the work of Arne Nordheim - who was a master of electro-acoustic. I'm listening to Eliane Radigue and also Francisco Lopez..... the list goes on. These are just the things I'm into right now.

Downloads though.... this has been a debate with me recently. I listen to my music on a Linn system, and became curious as to what new things they were doing. Sadly, Linn stopped making CD players, and their entire focus now is on streaming. A sad day. I decided I wasn't ready to jack in my CD's. Music, for me, isn't simply a relationship based on the ear. I have a physical relationship with it - I like to hold it, pull he case off the shelf, look at the cover and read the liner notes. It's a one-to-one relationship.

Web sites are one to many. Anyone can read those. A digital file may sound the same - but a file on a hard disk isn't the same as physical media. We can all change our minds, but I'm willing right now to state I won;t get into downloads. I can only see one advantage to downloads - I wouldn't have to pay for them. Truly. Just hop onto a nefarious web site or two, and grab tons of stuff. How crap!

So no - I won't buy digital downloads of anyone. If that means I have to go without, then I'll go without. Or grab it for free, I suppose. Such is my disdain for digital downloads. I'm in a diminishing minority these days, I'm afraid. I'm also not interested in single tracks - AT ALL. I never pick through tracks, I put on ALBUMS. If the artist can't muster 40 minutes of music, I'm not sure what they're doing in the studio. Very Happy

I'm not aware of the music people on this site produce. I'm not aware of buying any of it. I just haven't heard it. My journey hasn't gone there. You'd think, with all the music I listen to, that I'd be easy going about what I listen to, but actually I'm quite critical. Like for example, I bought a CD recently by a lady whose name was asian.... anyway a recommendation. I hated it. Eno was doing the same thing as this lady in the 70's.... if I want more of it, I'll go back to him. It simply wasn't compelling to me. So, I can moan a lot. Very Happy

I don't like the term "I collect music" because it doesn't speak to the reasons I buy so much (I spent £140 last night on rock, a genre I don't usually go back to these days!). Collecting makes it sound like I buy it to frame it and put it on the wall. Nothing could be farther from the truth, I buy music to hear it, to listen to it. My collection is the story of my life, my interests, asides, experiments. There's my whole history there. That's why it's so important.

Damn - what a lot of hot air!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:26 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
I decided I wasn't ready to jack in my CD's. Music, for me, isn't simply a relationship based on the ear. I have a physical relationship with it - I like to hold it, pull he case off the shelf, look at the cover and read the liner notes. It's a one-to-one relationship.


Wink

exactly what I had when the vinyl records disappeared from the shop, and I had to listen to CD's. Those tiny cases and linernotes on covers I could not read because the small fonts, just terrible, that made me to like downloads. The cover you can watch at the computer-screen, and the music you can listen where ever you want.


BTW a lot of my albums have a playtime over 2 hours so the 40 min you mentioned is just one track Very Happy

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Vaughan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:54 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

You can still buy vinyl, if that's you thing. My eye sight isn't so bad that I can't read CD booklets - I guess that's something I have to look forward to. And of course, you can burn MP3's to CD (though why'd you want to.......) and get more than the 80 minutes or so of red book if that's your thing.

As long as you've got something to say in musical terms, 40 minutes, 80 minutes, whatever..... The longest single piece I have is a string quartet from Morton Feldman, it's 5 and half hours long - one track. I can't afford the LaMonte Young piece "Well tuned Piano", which is also one piece at over 5 hours..... last time I saw it it went for $750.

The trouble, I think, with much self-produced work is that there is no-one to edit the piece in a qualitative sense. I could make a piece tonight that was 10 hours long - not a problem. But is it interesting to listen to? No, it wouldn't be. It would be horrible.

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BruecknerAmbient
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:18 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Well - Bert's music at least is definitely worth listening to, Vaughn (...at least in my book). If You - for example - like the more "experimental ambient" output of Klaus Schulze during the 70ies there's some chance you might enjoy it, too. I certainly do...

Well, of course it's completely up to You in which format (and in which quantity) You prefer Your music - actually i believe it's GREAT that You purchase so much CDs at all and support artists this way!

Smile


I think I know exactly what You mean with Your relationship to the physical aspect of albums. I feel quite similar, too (...for years my wife suggests to throw most of my LPs and CDs away, because "I don't listen to them all anyway" - that is not exactly incorrect, however: she doesn't understand... * BIG SIGH *).

Then again, for me personally I don't see why different formats of music shouldn't peacefully co-exist in my collection:
I have LPs, many of them, and CDs as well, I have DVDs, and I have video cassettes, and music cassettes - and more recently, I also have downloads (downloads that I have paid for, I'd like to add - if not the artist has given it away for free, and even then I usually donate a little if possible...).
Some of them I even burned on CD-R...

In all those cases: I'm interested in the music in the first place - and I also listen to albums (as opposed to single tracks) in most cases.
But I can also enjoy a physical release as an object of art (for example David Greenslade's "Pentateuch of Cosmogony" with all those excellent illustrations by Patrick Woodroffe (actually a rare case in that I love the cover but not so much the music...).

Actually, if I think of it: the option of downloads keeps me curious - I'm more willing to buy something from an artist I don't know if it's a download that's affordable to me (and I still have the feeling I support him or her), than I would for a more expensive physical version, which I rather tend to buy from artists I'm already fond of - like the next Klaus Schulze album: I already have paid for the limited two CD version without really being sure if he ever will finally manage to release the damned thing - but that's OK for me... Wink

Of course, an "unknown" artist can become "an artist I'm already fond of" one day.

Last question: why are You so sure that Your piece would be horrible? Have You already tried...?!

Smile

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dronescape
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:03 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

What triggers a sale?

The right name on the album sleeve, easy as that.

Stick "Klaus Schulze" on a huge pile of dung, and it will sell. To some, at least.

Stephen

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:19 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Well, I'll buy just about anything from Klaus. He's earned my respect as a musician, and an artist. I don't end up enjoying all of it, but it's always worth hearing, imo.

Kind of like Vangelis - I like the guy, but I have a real fondness for Invisible Connections and Beauborg, which many fans of his think are total rubbish. I have TWO copies of Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music, plus I have the orchestrated version by Zeitkratzer, Many find that rubbish. One mans poison is another mans gold. I find it challenging, and curious.

The name on the cover can indeed make a sale. If it's Tangerine Dream on the cover of a new release, on the other hand, I won't buy it. They lost my respect during the Melrose phase of the career.

Favorite Schulze, by the way, is Blackdance.

I've been tempted lately by Steve Wilson's Bass Communion. However, I've not seen the discs at a price I'm willing to pay. When I do, I think I'll give them a go.

ps: I'm surprised this site doesn't have a profile of the musicians on it, with some samples....

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:49 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

What triggers me to buy a title:

1. Some initial exposure. I need to hear some of it either on a radio show (like Star's End) or a streaming station, etc.

2. I'd like to be able to listen to more samples on line. Even a minute from each track is fine. And if I like what I hear...

3. It must be readily available, preferably from an established online CD or streaming store. If downloads, lossless only. I almost never buy mp3 files.

4. It must be reasonably priced including shipping. I live in the US, so ordering discs from the Netherlands or Germany is almost certainly out of the question. I've done it a few times and it's *really* expensive.

5. If it's a CD, nice packaging will catch my eye.

6. Competition with other titles comes into play. I keep a shopping list of titles I'm interested in acquiring. The list also has an unwritten priority for each title. An inexpensive, quick download is likely to move up the list faster than a costly CD that has to ship from Europe.

I've long since given up on the romantic notion that physical product is somehow more magical or whatever, so downloads are fine with me. But I'll still buy CDs as long as the above criteria are met.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:42 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« dronescape » wrote:
Stick "Klaus Schulze" on a huge pile of dung, and it will sell. To some, at least.


Yeah - definitely to me! Just wonder why no one ever did that. Wink


« Vaughan » wrote:
Well, I'll buy just about anything from Klaus. He's earned my respect as a musician, and an artist. I don't end up enjoying all of it, but it's always worth hearing, imo. .


Nice to meet You, mate! Very Happy


« Vaughan » wrote:
ps: I'm surprised this site doesn't have a profile of the musicians on it, with some samples....


Hear that, Admin...?! Wink

Then again, I think there is a section in this forum called "members introducing themselves" where musicians have a chance to - well: do the obvious there.

http://www.emportal.info/viewforum.php?f=6


Then, musicians can (and do) announce their releases here, and provide links to preview them.

http://www.emportal.info/viewforum.php?f=29


And: some musicians have links in their signatures, which directly lead to pages where You can explore their music
(Bert 'Phrozenlight' Hülshoff, always a good example, even has three...)

www.dutchspacemission.nl
www.musiczeit.com/phrozenlight/
www.phrozenlight.bandcamp.com

So, as long as a listener is willing to explore, this forum is quite a good starting point, I think...

Wink

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dronescape
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:40 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Vaughan » wrote:
[...] I have TWO copies of Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music [...]


That´s quite a nice album.

Stephen

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dronescape
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:43 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« ech3 » wrote:
[...] I live in the US, so ordering discs from the Netherlands or Germany is almost certainly out of the question. [...]


Shipping rates are reasonable at the moment (4 Euro worldwide when shipped from Germany). This wasn´t always the case (I remember having to charge 10 Euro for shipping alone a couple of years ago).

Watch me triggering a sale here Razz...

Stephen

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:07 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Speaking from my personal experience of what I noticed from other CD-buyers at festivals and similar events I would say that the main trigger for a sale nowadays is simply that the right name has to be on the cover. That's what the audience apparently is mainly looking for. It does not matter if it sounds as much as Berlin School or whatever the favourite music style ever might be if there is nobody mentioned on the title who does not seem to be established already.

The second actual reason that can trigger a sale is either friendship or certain feeling of affection to the artist.

And finally of course a good live performance also convinces some to buy CDs of that regarding artist or band that has played on stage right before - assuming that it was attended by sufficient amount of audience.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:29 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

just start
make a name
make an album
make a good cover
make a broadcast
make a group of friends
make it long
make it cheap
make a live show
bash your fans
start over again
do not stop because you do not sell
at the end you will notice you really have sold something.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:52 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« dronescape » wrote:
Stick "Klaus Schulze" on a huge pile of dung, and it will sell. To some, at least.

That's already been tried *





* Aphrica

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